Quest for Jeep: the twist

"Just Jeepin'" (macintux)
09/29/2020 at 19:05 • Filed to: betcha didn't see that coming, jeep, unnecessary jeep shopping with jj, grand cherokee

At the end of my last post on my search for the perfect Jeep XJ, I teased a plot twist.

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As you may or may not recall, my first listed reason for chasing an XJ was the fact that it was offered with a two-speed transfer case and a manual transmission. Whether I’m on- or off-road, I enjoy managing as much as possible what my Jeep is doing.

There are a few problems with my search, however. First, many affordable manual XJs have been thrashed and chopped and sound like an airplane because the cats and muffler are gone.

And there weren’t all that many manuals to begin with. I’ve seen estimates that only 2% of Cherokees were made with a stick, but I have no idea how accurate that is. Safe to say, though, that between the 4.0L engine I want, the stick shift I want, 4WD...the numbers aren’t great.

(Thanks, Cash for Clunkers. Of the 690,000 cars traded in, the third-most frequent vehicle was the Grand Cherokee, and number six on the list was the Cherokee.)

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Anyway I’ve been on here bothering everyone long enough and frequently enough that someone who wasn’t even a contributor to Oppo reached out to suggest I shut up and buy something else entirely.

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(Yes, he’s a contributor now , because I nagged him about it.)

So BMW (hey, I just figured that out) told me about his manual XJ to taunt me because he’s definitely not selling it, but also described a model and trim I’m not all that familiar with: an Overland Grand Cherokee.

Specifically, he told me about his 2003 Overland WJ, the second generation of Grand Cherokee.

Now you may be saying to yourself: Grand Cherokees don’t have a manual transmission. And you’d be mostly right, although as David Tracy expounded on FP the first generation ZJs were occasionally spotted with a stick.

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So, JJ, you may ask: why is this relevant? Surely you’re not going to ... dramatic pause ... compromise?

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Randy in his Sambar after our trip last weekend.

Well, here’s the dealio. I was reminded this past Saturday evening on my way back from my latest wanderings that driving my LJ is exhausting . The NVH is off the charts, and XJs aren’t significantly better (and without a headliner can be much worse).

(Of course, my friend Randy was driving a much smaller, less comfortable truck than I was, but he’s also younger.)

Sometimes a little comfort isn’t a terrible thing. Maybe I could choose whether I’m prepared to lose a little more of my hearing on any given day, or whether I’d rather take something civilized out for a spin.

Maybe despite my advanced decrepitude I might want to date again someday.

So, I thought to myself: maybe owning two different vehicles that share many of the same negative characteristics isn’t, in fact, such a bright idea. Maybe this Grand Cherokee idea has merit.

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So let’s return to my list o’ reasons why I wanted an XJ, and consider what happens to my dreams if I pick an Overland Grand Cherokee instead.

Control

Ok, so I’d give up the manual, and the GC doesn’t have selectable rear-wheel drive, but it does have a two-speed transfer case and a top-of-the-line four-wheel drive system. It even has limited slip differentials front and back, along with additional underbody protection, so it’s no slouch off-road.

And for the winter, full-time 4wd is a very nice feature. We don’t get many big snow storms to play in anymore (thanks climate change, grr) but we often have slushy, mixed conditions where it’s not ideal to use part-time 4WD.

(You don’t want to have four-wheel drive enabled on dry pavement, so while on a road with patches of slush or snow your best choice is typically to leave it in rear-wheel drive instead of repeatedly changing into and out of four-wheel drive.)

Aftermarket

The WJ is no XJ, but any Jeep still has healthy support from companies eager to take my money. On the downside, it’s not as easy to modify as an XJ, much less a Wrangler.

Familiarity

It’s a Jeep, but that’s about as much as I know about it. The only times in the past 30 years that I’ve driven an automatic have been rentals (and a briefly-owned Lincoln Continental), but admittedly I’ve spent a lot of time in rentals over the last few years as my LJ has been repeatedly in the shop.

Anyway, this is definitely a gap. I’m not at all familiar with the operations of this machine.

On the plus side, it would be my first vehicle ever with a V8. Zoom zoom.

Overland

Hey, it’s in the name.

Seriously, though, the WJ has lots of space. 72 cubic feet of cargo capacity with the rear seats folded down, about the same as the XJ with its seats removed. And it has a DC power outlet in the back, handy for adding a refrigerator.

Plus a 10-CD changer tucked in its own compartment back there, which I’m sure I could find some other use for. (The compartment with power, not the changer. I’m old but I’m not a Luddite.)

And it’s oh, so much more comfortable and quieter, nice for long trips like driving to Florida to see family, or hopefully someday exploring the U.P.

Beauty

The WJ is certainly an attractive vehicle, but it’s no boxy XJ. And no bright colors, either. The two I’m currently looking at are black and a very subtle green .

(I formerly misrepresented that as grey; my apologies to BrokenMostWeeks for the error!)

BMW’s WJ. Pretty sharp, love the lift.

On the plus side, if I ever decide to take up a life of crime, a grey WJ is far less memorable than a bright yellow LJ. I’ve often assured strangers as I give them a ride to a gas station, or !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , that a yellow Wrangler with no top or doors is a terrible kidnap vehicle.

I’ve never understood why that doesn’t seem to make them feel better.

Jeep

Well, duh. I can still do a Jeep Jamboree, or the Toledo Jeep Fest parade, with a WJ.

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Anyway, the jury’s still out, and I’m notoriously indecisive. I’ve only bought 5 vehicles in 30 years, if that gives you any idea of how long you might be waiting for me to pull the trigger on something.

I’m having a local Overland WJ inspected; it has an oil leak that would be better characterized as a gusher, so that’s probably no small effort to fix.

But other than that it’s remarkably clean, especially for this salty rusty hell called Indiana. The owner dearly loved it, kept it garaged and clean and there’s no rust underneath.

And BrokenMostWeeks is still deciding whether he wants to sell his lifted WJ; if the local one doesn’t pan out, there’s a good chance I’ll buy his.

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So, despite all of the posts showing the XJs I so deeply desire, despite my paean to XJs I just authored , I’m probably going a different direction.

Unless I change my mind again.

And eventually I’ll probably buy an XJ anyway, once I can find a valid excuse to have three Jeeps for just me.

Regardless, I’ll be sure to bore/regale you with my ongoing Jeep adventures, both the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! kind.

DISCUSSION (46)

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Just Jeepin'
09/29/2020 at 19:14

I was checking out a really nice WJ with a V8 listed for $7k and 100,000 miles, it sold...

Just Jeepin' > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever
09/29/2020 at 19:17

Do you remember what trim?

CompactLuxuryFan > Just Jeepin'
09/29/2020 at 19:22

I remember the Overland (which I understood to just be a new top trim to slot above the old top trim) being really quick when it came out! Since it had the new higher output 4.7. What a time.

Just Jeepin' > CompactLuxuryFan
09/29/2020 at 19:25

I test drove one last week, and it definitely felt fast off the line, but I’m also used to driving a Wrangler, so....

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Just Jeepin'
09/29/2020 at 19:35

Kinja'd!!!

Also 100% rust free!

Kiltedpadre > Just Jeepin'
09/29/2020 at 19:47

4wd manual transmission Jeep for a reasonable price without being destroyed?

No problem!

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=555647713&zip=45402&referrer=%2Fcars-for-sale%2Fsearchresults.xhtml%3Fzip%3D45402%26city%3DDayton%26incremental%3Dall%26modelCodeList%3DPATRIOT%26makeCodeList%3DJEEP%26driveGroup%3DAWD4WD%26transmissionCodes%3DMAN%26listingTypes%3DUSED%26sortBy%3Drelevance%26location%3D%255Bobject%2BObject%255D%26state%3DOH%26firstRecord%3D0%26marketExtension%3Doff%26searchRadius%3D300%26isNewSearch%3Dfalse&listingTypes=USED&numRecords=25&firstRecord=0&modelCodeList=PATRIOT&makeCodeList=JEEP&searchRadius=300&makeCode1=JEEP&modelCode1=PATRIOT&clickType=listing

We know it’s a real Jeep because I’ve seen them with “trail rated” badges.

Just Jeepin' > Kiltedpadre
09/29/2020 at 19:49

The Patriot was recommended to me on my last post, actually. Not a fan, but they’re not bad vehicles. They just look terrible. And are FWD, which meh. And not a two-speed transfer case, I don’t think...

OhCrikeyTheRozzers > Just Jeepin'
09/29/2020 at 20:05

My experience with WJ Overlands is limited to: 1) taking a road trip in one with a friend; and 2) noting the guy who ran the Drummond Island Jamboree I mentioned the other day rocked one. It did great in both roles. I’ve always really loved this generation and that trim level; seems to check a lot of the boxes for what you’re looking for.

Just Jeepin' > OhCrikeyTheRozzers
09/29/2020 at 20:06

Thanks, that’s quite encouraging. I definitely want it to be sufficiently robust to do Drummond Island.

Heck, it’s a comfortable enough ride that I might in a year or two do what I’ve never dared to in my LJ: head to Utah or Colorado.

nermal > Just Jeepin'
09/29/2020 at 20:09

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/816228128/overview/

Consider something like this one . If you’re gonna downgrade to the crappy 3.7l engine anyways , a KK will drive and handle better than any Wrangler. ‘08s had the manuel available as well.

OhCrikeyTheRozzers > Just Jeepin'
09/29/2020 at 20:18

I’ve never driven one off road but my impression is that they’re pretty capable; some casual Googling just now got me to a video of some guy taking his to Moab. You’re also right on the XJ for longer trips , it’s not awful on the highway (and certainly much better than that vintage of Wrangler) but the Overland would be dramatically more comfortable.

Just Jeepin' > nermal
09/29/2020 at 20:18

I hadn’t thought that the KK had a manual option, but both the KJ and apparently the KK have the same transmission I have today that I loathe with a passion.

The Overland WJ has the 4.7L HO engine.

BrokenMostWeeks > Just Jeepin'
09/29/2020 at 20:26

Not sure if it makes a difference in your preferences, but mine is actually Onyx Green, not gray

That said, having put another 250mi on it in the last 24hr (while toting a dirt bike on the hitch, no less), it really drives like a couch, especially with the extra weight on the back.

If you decide the local one is a better match and I decide not to replace this Overland (hello manual Gladiator), there’s a good chance this thing will be hauling me and my TwoWheelsGood machines to Colorado next spring.

Kinja'd!!!

Just Jeepin' > BrokenMostWeeks
09/29/2020 at 20:29

Heh, you know as I imported that photo and took a closer look, I wondered if there wasn’t a green tinge to it. Sorry for misrepresenting that, I’ll fix it.

It does look so terribly handsome.

Tell me about the manual. I’ve heard strongly mixed reviews on it.

BrokenMostWeeks > Just Jeepin'
09/29/2020 at 20:45

No bother to me! I just wanted to make sure you didn’t think it was gray and get disappointed if it was green haha

So interesting thing about the manual gladiators... they don’t exist. My inside source says they’re special order only anymore. Of course when you cut 3500lb from the tow rating for the extra pedal, that does put a damper on things. And yes, I’ve heard pretty ‘meh’ things on the stick too, but if I get one, it has to be a manual.

Even though I had to drive an automatic JT, I do have to say the auto box is really pretty good. And overall, it’s such a livable, comfortable place to be while still feeling very much like a wrangler, but also being able to throw all my junk in the bed.

Just Jeepin' > BrokenMostWeeks
09/29/2020 at 20:48

Someone here took one on a test drive and passionately hated it, although I can’t remember who or find the post . I’d be very cautious about ordering one without a test drive, although I suppose you can always change your mind when it arrives.

Definitely not disappointed; I do not like greyscale. The fact that yours is green is tipping the scales in that direction...

nermal > Just Jeepin'
09/29/2020 at 20:52

If you don’t like the NSG370, your options are either going back to a 5-speed KJ or forward to a new JL. The KJ looks stupid, so might as well go a little more back to an XJ if you’re gonna go that direction .

The 4.7l is is all of the crappiness of the 3.7l with 2 extra cylinders. It will use twice as much fuel as a JL with less actual power. Have you considered skipping getting a 2nd one and just trading your current Jeep towards a JL?

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Just Jeepin'
09/29/2020 at 20:55

I don’t think it could be found on the Overland but the WJ was available with a 4WD system that had every possible mode you could want. If that Overland doesn't work out I'd start shopping around for lesser trim levels.

Kinja'd!!!

Kiltedpadre > Just Jeepin'
09/29/2020 at 20:56

I’m pretty sure on the 4wd models it was a full time, front wheel drive biased system. I think it did have a lock system for the center differential, but I don’t know if that was standard or optional.

I make one small Jeep comment, and this is the next ad I see. A statement for anyone that doesn’t believe we’re always being tracked and listened to without needing chips in vaccines.

Kinja'd!!!

Just Jeepin' > nermal
09/29/2020 at 21:00

I’m very fond of the JL design, but I’m not in a situation where I could swap soft and hard tops on demand , which would be critical to getting the same flexibility out of one Jeep that I’m hoping for out of two.

And sadly my LJ isn’t worth very much in trade right now. It needs quite a bit of work.

Plus I am very fond of it, brokenness and all.

That being said, I’ve definitely thought about it.

Just Jeepin' > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent
09/29/2020 at 21:05

One downside to Selec-Trac is that you don’t get the limited slip differentials, but yeah, it would be more fun to have that flexibility.

BrokenMostWeeks > Just Jeepin'
09/29/2020 at 21:05

The sheer lack of availability makes test driving a manual truck tough, but I do agree I’d like to try it before I buy it.

The green on my WJ is one of my favorite parts about it. The 2021 Gladiator has discontinued all greens, and that is unfortunate. It’s pretty greyscale in JT land

Just Jeepin' > BrokenMostWeeks
09/29/2020 at 21:07

The JT isn’t offered in Sarge? That’s terrible!

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Just Jeepin'
09/29/2020 at 21:15

2001 onwards you could option a rear limited slip on the lower trim levels. There’s no way to tell without getting a build sheet or crawling around under the vehicle though. I've seen a few mentions that it was included with tow packages too.

BrokenMostWeeks > Just Jeepin'
09/29/2020 at 21:15

Exactly!!!

A JT in Sarge Green would be perfect, but not this year. They said possibly 2022, but no confirmation. I really like the Willys spec JT that is new for 2021, but best I can tell no option for cold weather package with the manual, which is a no-go for me and also makes me worried about the availability of a manual in the future

Just Jeepin' > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent
09/29/2020 at 21:16

Didn’t know that, thanks! What I know about GCs at this point is still basically zero.

Just Jeepin' > BrokenMostWeeks
09/29/2020 at 21:17

...you live in North Carolina.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Just Jeepin'
09/29/2020 at 21:24

Go to WJJeeps.com. It’s chock full of pretty much anything you could possibly need to know, right down to the different gauge styles used or even an article entirely about the under-hood lamp.

Just Jeepin' > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent
09/29/2020 at 21:30

Yep, I’ve went straight there when I saw y our photo of the selec-trac.

BrokenMostWeeks > Just Jeepin'
09/29/2020 at 21:33

I’m weak.

Although we do dip below freezing many nights/mornings during the winter months, and my commute is always at least one way in the dark.

But mostly, I’m just weak and love those heated seats.

Just Jeepin' > BrokenMostWeeks
09/29/2020 at 21:34

I’m not happy unless it’s 90° and my windshield is down, so I can relate.

Except I’ve never had heated seats. #firstworldproblems

BrokenMostWeeks > Just Jeepin'
09/29/2020 at 21:40

You will be changed by heated seats.

The JT I drove today had the cold weather pack, which included heated steering wheel. I tried it just for fun, and oh boy is that the ticket...

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Just Jeepin'
09/29/2020 at 21:49

I have a friend who drove an absolute base 2WD 5 Speed Patriot like that for a while. Windy windows, no central locking, the only option it had was the red paint. You do not want one.

Just Jeepin' > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
09/29/2020 at 21:50

Trust me, not on the shopping list.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Just Jeepin'
09/29/2020 at 22:07

Good.

Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo > Just Jeepin'
09/30/2020 at 10:26

Hey, you know our crew is a fan of the ZJ anyway (and I’ve always liked the WJ)

Kinja'd!!!

I forget, what area of the country are you in? I saw a manual ZJ for sale a few weeks back and should have sent it your way....

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > Just Jeepin'
09/30/2020 at 10:27

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(Thanks, Cash for Clunkers. Of the 690,000 cars traded in, the third-most frequent vehicle was the Grand Cherokee, and number six on the list was the Cherokee.)

-- A Land Cruiser Guy

Just Jeepin' > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo
09/30/2020 at 10:29

Indiana. I suspect any manual ZJs that have survived are going to be far from here.

Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo > Just Jeepin'
09/30/2020 at 12:03

Yeah that one was in Portland haha. For the price ($1500?) it might have been worth it.

Still though, Indiana is near(ish) me so I’ll keep an eye out around here.

ShrimpHappens, née WJalopy > Just Jeepin'
09/30/2020 at 12:31

So, I think you know I had an ‘04 Grand Cherokee. It was a Limited, optioned to where the only thing it didn’t have that most Overlands have is the rock rails. I had Quadradrive and the 4.7L HO.

Shame about the WJ’s is that the better engine (4.0L) got a worse transmission. So to get the good transmission (same 545FRE they used in Rams) you gotta go with the 4.7L V8, which is generally considered a garbage engine. The main problem is dropped valves.

However, anecdotal evidence I’ve read (mostly on JeepForum) indicates that a lot of people with dropped valves “babied” their engines and didn’t drive them hard, whereas folks who routinely got the revs up had fewer problems.

Mine burned oil. Always did. I had a new PCV valve for it, but I couldn’t get the old one off so I never swapped it out. But what really did mine in is head gaskets. The HO had aluminum heads on an iron block, so I’m not surprised the gasket gave issues. Don’t know what the non-HO heads are.

So, Quadradrive. It sometimes get a bad rap because of the inherent delay to get the fronts going. However, it served my needs fine. I once got stuck in wet grass due to crappy tires, but each tire had dug its own hole as it should’ve.

Only drawback I experienced with Quadradrive is when I changed the gear oil in the axles, I could never get all the noise to go away. First time I did it I bought pricey Redline-brand oil that had zero limited-slip additive in it and then added the Mopar additive, and it wasn’t too noisy. Second time I was lazier and cheaper, so I got regular off-the-shelf gear oil that has a some additive already in it and added a little more of the Mopar stuff. That was noisier, especially when cold.

Don’t know much about suspension mods, though it seems all the major brands have kits for them. Leading opinion on JeepForum is Clayton’s long-arm kit is the go-to if you’re looking to fit 33's or 35's.

Oh, one other weird thing: folks on JeepForum would often talk about how if the battery was the slightest bit weak or close to dying the electronics will lose their minds. I experienced this when I lost the alternator and battery on the same cold day.

Just Jeepin' > ShrimpHappens, née WJalopy
09/30/2020 at 12:34

Hmm. That is, on the whole, not terribly encouraging. I’m already a little stressed by the lifespan of the HO engine being around 150k miles (although I don’t remember where I saw that).

ShrimpHappens, née WJalopy > Just Jeepin'
09/30/2020 at 12:40

I feel like I’ve read that, too. I bought mine with 115-120k miles and was nearly at 160k when I traded it in on the Gladiator.

Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo > Just Jeepin'
09/30/2020 at 13:13

Ok.... just a quick look on local CL turns up... jack shit.

Two on facebook tho!

Kinja'd!!!